Neue Episode

00:00:00: Hi everyone!

00:00:00: So another episode where I'm a little bit delayed and i am so sorry for posting episodes which were recorded awhile ago.

00:00:07: But this episode today is amazing to every one who's like in the fire field of apps, uh... Who's interested in conversion optimization retention optimization on boardings etc.. I am talking to the co-founder of Cool Story.

00:00:22: His name is Igor One of the product managers Slash founders, I'm talking to on a regular basis.

00:00:29: Um...I think he's really talented guy has a lot of knowledge in the field of subscriptions.

00:00:34: um and i would say let's just

00:00:37: start in

00:00:38: And you're the founder of Cool Story.

00:00:39: tell me what cool story is.

00:00:41: Sure!

00:00:41: Cool Story Is A Startup That I Just Started Building Last Year.

00:00:45: I've Discovered In My Career In Product Management that There Is Like An Amazing Problem To Solve Every Painful One For Product Managers Of adoption of features and activation in general, in any both VTC and BTP products.

00:01:02: And what CoolStory does is trying to solve this problem with a more simple and a human way of interacting between the company and user.

00:01:12: We do it through short videos that are akin to Instagram stories hence the CoolStore name.

00:01:18: If I

00:01:18: have an app how would we implement your solution?

00:01:22: Sure We just give you like a tiny piece of JS code that you put into your app and in any place where you've put it, You will see those stories.

00:01:34: So It's very similar to how we would implement something Like Google Analytics or Any other tool.

00:01:40: cool And does it mean?

00:01:42: Also if the setup is done from developer probably but also like a non-technical person can work with the content management system.

00:01:52: Yes, yes.

00:01:53: That's the biggest idea.

00:01:54: The biggest problem that we're solving is not necessarily the technical problems of just implementing it But on the content management side We are making this very easy for product managers For product marketers to manage the contents in any way they prefer Without talking with a developer since they integrated them once.

00:02:14: And my main goal Is user activation and user engagement

00:02:18: Probably like our biggest.

00:02:20: So right now is onboarding, like I struggle with on-boarding all the time.

00:02:26: And if we can improve the onboarding by even... The activation metric?

00:02:31: Like five percent there would be absolutely happy.

00:02:35: and that's what we're doing right now.

00:02:37: Cool so you download a new app and it just makes sure of at like i got all the features

00:02:43: exactly.

00:02:43: yeah

00:02:44: like someone talking in a video being like oh by way did you know that you actually come?

00:02:49: I don't know, like split expenses

00:02:50: or whatever.

00:02:52: Cool cool!

00:02:54: I think that's a super nice topic.

00:02:55: if we talk little bit more about activation and all these kind of things How do you define activation in the context of subscription?

00:03:04: Oh

00:03:05: That is an amazing question Amazing question...I really liked to give my own answer.

00:03:11: And there was promise that a marketer gives any user whenever they interact.

00:03:20: It could be like way, way before the install it's not necessarily uh...like seconds before sign up-it's a promise that you perceive as a customer weeks or years before and activation is the realization of a user that that promise was fulfilled.

00:03:40: I don't really..I understand the aha moment everyone is talking about But a ha moment could be for different reason, whereas there couldn't be no connection between the promise and an aha-moment.

00:03:56: I can be excited about something that i just discovered.

00:03:59: Whereas I really like to define activation as understanding of a promise fulfilled

00:04:06: Can you, as a product manager before founding your own company and several cool companies like for example PandaDoc can give few examples of how this was in real life?

00:04:17: Sure.

00:04:19: The simplest example I can give is probably with... You have to keep the marketing channel that we're using.

00:04:28: so if were talking about someone who's typing PandaDock then there isn't much In terms of activation, this person will activate with like eighty percent probability.

00:04:38: So there's no problem.

00:04:40: But if the person goes through either an organic channel or a paid marketing channel where we promise something Something like simple invoice management or document workflow automation then They come to Panda Doc for example and they try to find If it's actually that easy And its on us to give them the perception, and it's very important.

00:05:06: You can fake activation.

00:05:08: companies do that quite a lot.

00:05:11: they want The user too feel as if It's coming just right around the corner And we want to give this perception like not to lose the customer and it so easy to use the customer nowadays.

00:05:25: Which is the reason?

00:05:26: Companies keep this perception Like in the CRM space.

00:05:29: at my previous companies I was pretty big in the CRM space and B to be is nothing like it was Like five or ten years ago where a customer would go into your app And they would sign up, and they will stay with you forever.

00:05:45: What's happening right now Is that?

00:05:47: A customer finds out that they need problem solved and they open like the first page of Google By their search.

00:05:55: They opened like Five.

00:05:57: competitors are eight competitors and they signed up two each and every one of them.

00:06:02: it bugs them just a little bit.

00:06:03: if they don't feel this magic with the certain product, then we'll immediately close and will never come back.

00:06:10: Okay I think what would be interesting to me is like that key metrics are which you find interesting but as maybe non-technical people listening to podcasts can you name your key matrix yourself important?

00:06:27: a small explanation of what the conversion rate is or retention or turn right all these kind things.

00:06:35: So, The first thing and it's very important that something I see like junior product managers miss quite a lot not even Junior it happens to us we start track some metrics immediately without looking at their first session.

00:06:55: as I mean, metrics are amazing.

00:06:58: But actually looking at what your users are doing in real time with tools like hotjar or any other screen reporting software is critically important because you can sometimes see the frustration and it's very-very important to see whether frustration could be basically divided by two things that people don't activate.

00:07:20: They either are motivated And they do not understand how to do something or they just lack motivation, and those are the two biggest sources of frustration.

00:07:30: So the first suggestion that I would give is to really look at the screen recordings because sometimes you can see like a person being furious because they don't understand something but want to skip something.

00:07:44: in terms of metrics themselves probably nowadays as i said activation has changed quite a lot and when years ago it was about the first, I don't know five sessions.

00:07:59: Right now activation is all about the First Session.

00:08:01: if you don't activate your user in The First Sessions You basically lost this user.

00:08:08: That's that's the gist of It.

00:08:09: And...the first metric that i usually look at Is the length Of the First session.

00:08:15: Its not like the perfect Metric by any account but it gives you like a first overview, how healthy the situation is.

00:08:25: Because if someone had for a fifteen second session that's probably not good for your regardless of what product they're doing and how difficult their activation is.

00:08:35: And If You Go Into B to B where The First Session requires quite A Lot Of Setup That Could Be The First Predictor.

00:08:45: If Your First Sessions Is Like A Minute-and-Ahalf your user probably didn't set up anything, which gets me to the next point.

00:08:55: In any activation journey there is first a setup moment and an aha moment.

00:09:01: so we've talked about aha moments briefly before where it's the realization of yes you can do stuff that I need whereas the setup moment to make this aha moment possible.

00:09:18: And in BtoC, sometimes the setup movement could be just very tiny.

00:09:24: for example like if we take something like TikTok or any other entertainment app it doesn't require a set up.

00:09:30: The only set-up you have is just to launch an app For the first time and see any entertainment or educational content Whereas on BtoB You cannot get value from CRM up until you import users there or you connect it to the other system that your using, which requires both mental and time effort on the user's part.

00:09:59: Which gets me into second metric is critically important.

00:10:03: just a number of setups.

00:10:05: It basically like if we look at activation funnel If we zoom in into the activation funnel We would be looking are trying to get into the aha moment by setting things up.

00:10:19: A lot of companies struggle with defining this moment, why do you think it's that?

00:10:25: The setup moments specifically.

00:10:27: I have a set-up moment or also this aha moment.

00:10:30: ii think the setup moment probably for all companies should be clear.

00:10:34: yeah i assume so but for aha moment We're a lot of discussions on what is our moment.

00:10:41: Yeah,

00:10:41: it's a beautiful question.

00:10:43: I mean as i said in the very beginning It really starts with the promise and...I'm sorry!

00:10:50: I will go into the rabbit hole of product marketing right now because its a pet peeve mine.

00:10:56: uh..i gotta ask you What was the last time You went to big BtoB companies landing page And actually understood what they do?

00:11:08: I think lately haven't been to too many BtoB landing pages.

00:11:13: Okay, i can give you a tour if you want!

00:11:18: Yeah so basically what is currently happening in btb and it's been like that for the last three maybe more years?

00:11:25: Is that companies are trying to become everything for

00:11:29: everyone?!

00:11:30: If you go to monday.com or salesforce.com like, knowledge-based management and CRM and that.

00:11:42: And this and calendar and everything.

00:11:46: so what they do?

00:11:47: They basically don't give you a good enough promise in the very beginning when they say help teams synergize to whatever.

00:11:59: five more bullshit words.

00:12:02: What's happening in the end with their activation is that a user successfully signs up.

00:12:08: A user successfully goes through, um... The setup of whatever they're setting up but there is no aha moment because They did not understand at very beginning what we were signing for and you cannot be happy about something if you weren't expecting it.

00:12:26: essentially And I think where a lot discussions are happening right now around the aha moment, around the need to segment your users.

00:12:37: To give them a very, very segmented onboarding which I do not necessarily agree with a lot but that's where most of discussion is happening right now.

00:12:47: Interesting and you think it's really essential to think about what is the quota on the landing page for big letters thing which has promised people so they know why we're signing in?

00:13:00: Absolutely, yeah.

00:13:01: I've done as part of my own product... ...I was talking a lot to GenZ which i'm not a part of and I was very interested outside the scope for my personal research in their patterns of interaction with BtoB products because one of the trends that I see a lot recently is People are talking quite a lot about Gen Z and even younger generation as being the current users of B to C apps, which is the case.

00:13:33: Yes They dominate basically like in entertainment in education now an e-commerce because they're Finally having their own money to spend.

00:13:43: but what I saw As uh Quite a ship that not many people understand or notice today Is that these people aren't actually working at companies?

00:13:55: And they are buying and using V to B products as well.

00:14:00: Or like a CRM or something that is very, very difficult for Gen Z person to understand not necessarily because they don't know what the CRM is but because their just not used this type of communication.

00:14:18: So answer your question get it back.

00:14:20: you ask me The result of my research, essentially like if I pull it down to a ten second thing is that Gen Z doesn't read anything outside of H-One on the landing page.

00:14:35: And the quote they gave me was... A lot people who never met each other basically all give with different roles and titles in seniority.

00:14:45: Why do you have these people writing this content for?

00:14:51: I'm not going to read

00:15:09: this.

00:15:10: I was always like, who's going to read this?

00:15:15: People don't read.

00:15:17: In my last employment as also nowadays am not responsible for landing page et cetera but in my last deployment the big teaser on the website until now a days is are you tired of cookie banners?

00:15:28: or process extension automatically responds to cookie banners based on your choosing privacy level.

00:15:34: do You think that's a good example Or bad one or something To improve?

00:15:38: if i give you light Of course there Is Always room For improvement But If I compare it to all the ones that i gave you, It's a perfect one.

00:15:48: It talks about the problem immediately and yes The activation in the end would be me realizing That the promise was fulfilled My personal favorite?

00:16:04: I don't know how they perform!

00:16:06: I haven't talked to people who actually work at those companies.

00:16:11: it's essentially like you have a CRM or anything else doesn't matter and the main tagline is, The best fucking CRM for audience.

00:16:23: It does not give you a promise...a specific promise but gives an emotional promise in your immediately invested and motivated which was something we didn't touch alot.

00:16:39: Oh, let me tell you this.

00:16:42: This is so important!

00:16:44: One of the things that I always wanted to measure but was never able to... So maybe we'll have some ideas?

00:16:51: We were only doing this qualitatively via user interviews

00:16:55: etc.,

00:16:55: etc.

00:16:56: Different people have very different levels of energy.

00:17:00: they want to invest into a process.

00:17:04: For example there's you and your clone who has the same job, everything about YouTube is the same.

00:17:13: And I give you like a type form of sixty questions and different people will actually drop off at different stages.

00:17:23: so there would be some person that go through the sixty question no problem somewhere at the top of the page and like I'm not doing this, i'm sorry.

00:17:36: And there will be another person who will go through like twenty and drop on

00:17:40: it.".

00:17:42: One thing that I would really love somehow to measure is this level of remaining energy

00:17:59: And you would say like over time, people get exhausted and the chances for someone to really take action are getting lower.

00:18:07: And this arm moment needs to be on first day when they're present.

00:18:12: still

00:18:13: Absolutely!

00:18:14: Not the first date.

00:18:16: The First Day was years ago.

00:18:17: Now it's the first session.

00:18:20: Yeah yeah... And first session could be as short a couple of minutes.

00:18:26: once again depending upon your product and the audience are observing, yeah.

00:18:31: What do you think is the impact of non-activated users on the long term retention metrics?

00:18:39: Oh fantastic question!

00:18:41: That's something... So how I discovered activation?

00:18:47: in the very beginning of my product journey i was talking a lot with my CEO about metric like one day retention or a two-day retention, which were abysmal.

00:19:00: They're super low and we couldn't understand like what's the reason?

00:19:06: Why are people churning?

00:19:07: The reason is they...they're not churning but just never activated.

00:19:12: And when I managed product managers back in the days a very specific line between non-activated and activated users, because when an on-activate user quote unquote churns there's no reason for churn.

00:19:33: Like you can determine if the user is activated your next step... The obvious next step was to figure out what is actual reason they are churned with non-activated users There just one reason They never understood why their here in first place.

00:19:50: So yeah That's the gist of it.

00:19:53: You mentioned that like when using cool story, retention is really high?

00:20:00: Can you elaborate on why this happens

00:20:03: among my users or

00:20:05: customers off yours?

00:20:07: so before we talked last time yeah you said something like

00:20:11: yes The biggest reason... It's not with a hundred percent of customers obviously but The biggest reason is that it's the problem.

00:20:21: That Is very, Very popular among companies right now.

00:20:25: as I said the Activation rates are dropping if companies don't change.

00:20:30: there are companies that Don't use cool story and adapt their onboarding And work on it constantly.

00:20:38: they have dedicated growth teams?

00:20:41: In those growth teams There are people responsible for activation who check the trends check the analytics and always try to keep activation high.

00:20:52: Those are usually companies that rely a lot on paid marketing because it's very, very painful for CMOs to hear we've spent millions of dollars on paid advertisements.

00:21:07: those users have signed up then they never went anywhere.

00:21:12: like seventy percent of our marketing budget is essentially wasted and passed on to the customer acquisition cost, which companies do not like to grow a lot.

00:21:24: And yeah those companies that do track all of this are actually not my customers but the rest of these companies need to figure it out as soon as possible.

00:21:38: they feel the pain.

00:21:45: Yes, you can improve those metrics by being more direct with your customers in communication for any reason.

00:21:55: One plocker which I have on my head is when... So like a work for finance Google was just German app to organize the finances and it's an amazing app that everyone should download at one hundred percent.

00:22:09: recommend saved me lot of money.

00:22:11: The thing we definitely had huge onboarding which is kind of important to have like a good user experience.

00:22:19: But at the other side, when talking about Gen Z

00:22:22: etc.,

00:22:25: I wonder how can you balance for speed but at the same time ensuring... To actually activate with users and provide them quality?

00:22:35: Do you think there's a good balance?

00:22:37: This all boils down into experiments.

00:22:40: in my personal experience There wasn't a single situation where I walked into the company and said, okay this has to be this way.

00:22:49: We always ran an experiment and tried to figure out whether we should close the app before user passes through every painful onboarding or Should we open it up as much possible?

00:23:03: Even even to the point of being accessible without sign-up.

00:23:08: you probably seen some cases like these were.

00:23:11: you can basically go and start using an app by just clicking a button either on web or mobile.

00:23:19: And as you start inputting any useful personal information, it actually prompts you to sign up at some point to save all the results that we've got.

00:23:31: It all boils down to experimentation of how your users are behaving because for example in one of the apps I have built which was a social network, and it wasn't like very specific social network for submiche.

00:23:47: It's important to see first what is in there then sign up through all this painful process whereas BtoB doesn't make sense open-up show inside if the customer has not inputted anything or cannot get any value out of.

00:24:10: So it all boils down to just trying out a lot.

00:24:14: I would really suggest you run an experiment of either zero onboarding and try see how users will behave, yeah its very useful experience.

00:24:27: We do a lot of experimentation because obviously, web is just useful if you connect your bank account and have all the transactions.

00:24:35: If not it's waste time like no one has the discipline to manually add expenses we all know that then it also isn't possible for us see.

00:24:45: okay there are long term contracts which might be cancelled or these kind things.

00:24:50: Yeah The relevant case I had It's not exactly the same as finance group, but it still a fintech app where in the very beginning you have to go through KYC.

00:25:04: and What they did is that?

00:25:07: They just removed the KYC.

00:25:09: That'll let the user go into the app see what's going to happen there And then when one of the users wants to like take alone or deposit cash Or whatever they're doing their Only then it prompts them to go through KYC, and KYC in FinTech is essentially like the biggest drop-off on the onboarding journey.

00:25:31: And they essentially hacked their activation this way... ...and at work I assume that Finland's Guru is a bit easier because connecting a bank isn't as difficult as going though KYC with your photos or passports

00:25:47: But still, it's a big barrier for people because they are like okay I want to get my finances organized and then It's this big onboarding but its needed.

00:25:58: To be useful And obviously if you want the useful app which is helping people.

00:26:03: Yeah what really helped in my experience with those barriers that You cannot avoid especially in BTC Is just to motivate The user on an emotional level.

00:26:14: It's very important to connect with the user, and what usually works is just show them what awaits after that.

00:26:24: so one of my customers using stories in a different way than I imagined.

00:26:32: They're using it for upsells And they do...it's like entertainment mobile app And what they do is instead of like a generic upsell that says, like upgrade to a premium plan.

00:26:45: To get this and then for three ninety nine per month What they do?

00:26:49: Is They show testimonials Of people who are on the premium plans so you can Like click and You Can See A video Person Saying How Excited They Are To Be On This On This Premium Plan.

00:27:01: So Where You Can Do You Can Probably Try Show somehow not necessarily with cool story in any way you can like what awaits them after the bank is connected.

00:27:12: I know it's not that exciting to connect a bank, but here.

00:27:15: Is what?

00:27:15: What's there?

00:27:17: yeah Yeah And i think especially if its about finances people have trust issues and like for sure they should have like like theres A lot of crap outside as well, and i think It's good thing to be like yeah super Like Data privacy concern, especially if it's important data and I mean like the Germans are a little more strict with these kind of things.

00:27:40: But i think overall.

00:27:42: It's really good thing.

00:27:43: um what are your feelings on?

00:27:45: Like free trials?

00:27:47: uh before people Really do upfront payments before they see them

00:27:52: really depends on the industry.

00:27:54: Sometimes it just doesn't work Because of customer acquisition cost.

00:27:59: Um like The rule of thumb is Essentially, if you are in the very high competitive industry for example like dating or I don't know something around that.

00:28:16: Let's just get dating as an example.

00:28:20: Or gambling is actually a really good example.

00:28:25: They're similar and they're funneled.

00:28:27: So what's expected from the business side Is to spend a ton of money on acquisition and you want to recuperate this money as soon as possible, to be reinvested in further requisition.

00:28:43: You cannot wait for the customer too.

00:28:47: pay later because your opponents or competitors will just straight up outbid on the paid marketplace.

00:28:57: In those situations free trials don't work Just period Even though a lot of companies have tried.

00:29:04: On the other hand, pre-trial is an amazing way to both help with activation as we just talked and to disrupt the market if your competition doesn't do it.

00:29:18: And if its possible It's a fantastic way to build PLG straight into your flow where the customer would obviously need a lot of traffic into paid users.

00:29:37: But yeah, free trial really works as opposed to premium for example.

00:29:42: I prefer well once again depending on the situation but free trial time limited.

00:29:50: free trial helps with activation because it does two things one It lets you experience the aha moment uninterrupted, unrestricted by any limitations of a freemium.

00:30:05: And second which is less talked about it makes user invest into setting up more and It basically makes it more likely for them to convert into paid Because they have already invested.

00:30:25: They already understand stuff as opposed to like freemiums.

00:30:30: were you activate a freemium with one button.

00:30:33: You can do much, well once again it really depends on the freedom but as rule of thumb I prefer free trial.

00:30:42: for that reason

00:30:43: if you say like It's good If its time limited what timeframe Do we talk about?

00:30:48: i think typically is Like four.

00:30:50: B to B environment maybe A month and b two C Maybe week.

00:30:54: i guess not hundred percent sure About this But thats What i've seen alot.

00:31:00: How do you think about these timeframes?

00:31:01: Yeah, I think in B to C your quite on point that a week is usually everything that's needed.

00:31:09: To figure stuff out.

00:31:11: In B-to-B the most popular Is fourteen days and The reasons are Not as obvious.

00:31:21: It's not simply just wanting to get the money earlier That's that's not the case.

00:31:29: A shorter trial period motivates the user to act right now, which is very important in the activation journey.

00:31:40: One of things that's quite often happening with people... one reason it matters so much because I can be motivated and understand what happens.

00:31:52: but maybe if something goes wrong like a courier waiting outside my door and I close the tap, when i come back one minute later it's out of my memory.

00:32:09: The main reason companies don't do like a month or two-month trial is not because they want the customer earlier.

00:32:16: It's because...it's a relaxed time frame where the customers essentially will figure this up later what is actually happening, they never do.

00:32:30: They have some priorities and yeah that's essentially

00:32:34: it.".

00:32:34: How how do you think about like making it even shorter?

00:32:37: I mean we see context.

00:32:39: probably people can understand better and identify more with the situation by installing an app And just having one day where there are cases when this would make sense.

00:32:51: so giving a sneak peek

00:32:53: Yes!

00:32:53: It definitely does.

00:32:56: Once again, it really depends on the situation because sometimes like in my previous company there's no way for a customer to get... We had quite a lengthy trial.

00:33:08: I think default was thirty days and then we extended that for some customers as well completely free of charge.

00:33:15: And reason why did is our actual aha moment Of getting leads Was delayed forty days or something like that of customers realizing and getting their first results, which actually seals the deal for us.

00:33:34: So sometimes those restrictions apply... I can give you another example any collaborative tool where you can set things up in the first session obviously but will get an actual aha moment when your co-workers collaborators join and then you understand like, okay that's something I need.

00:33:59: And there are even tools in B to D. they can enjoy a three-to one day trial period.

00:34:06: if it is tool...I could give an example but i don't remember the name used couple years ago.

00:34:13: It was a tool which helps reorganize your calendar.

00:34:17: If you're manager tons of meetings running at the same time you forget to eat, or sleep etc.

00:34:24: So what it helps you do is reorganize your calendar into better blocks.

00:34:32: It sets up moments as you connect in Google Calendar which is like one click and its a-ha moment when it does the reorganization so that trial period could easily be one day.

00:34:43: If you talk about calendars, do we think for cleanly like the moment is when you get the

00:34:49: first

00:34:50: appointment set it into your calendar without touching anything?

00:34:55: For communication.

00:34:56: Yes I Do thing.

00:34:58: so they are trying their best to To make you believe that It's not as far as you think there are ways that companies that rely on any external interaction for their aha moment.

00:35:14: Companies try to make you feel as if you've accomplished something even before with simple things like gamification, fake activation.

00:35:24: they can sometimes do even programmed interactions where basically a bot will book a Callen Lee meeting saying hi this is Callen Lea and how someone will be committing.

00:35:40: But yeah, it could be a problem for companies like Calendly if they don't do that and expect you to put a Calendley link.

00:35:48: And your first booking would in two months... Yeah!

00:35:53: It's painful for them.

00:35:55: Interesting.

00:35:55: I definitely always look out for aha moments because i think its an interesting concept and there is something on it.

00:36:04: all the tools I really like, think i remember kind of like for example Zencast are we using right now.

00:36:13: Like the moment for me was recorded in my first episode and it's automatically in Google Drive everything stands by itself!

00:36:24: Nice job.

00:36:25: And do you think there is some counter-intuitive strategies that work well to maximise customer lifetime value?

00:36:33: Yes yes I mean, there are dark patterns.

00:36:38: If we're talking about customer lifetime value that work for everyone to be honest and it's both in BtoB and BtoC It is more prevalent obviously in Btc because you can manipulate people.

00:36:51: The most basic one is to restrict cancellation.

00:36:56: That something companies rely on the returning their customer acquisition cost do a lot like, for example they will give you the best promotion when try to cancel.

00:37:12: They'll make even in BTC I've seen that and call customer service representative or something like that to cancel.

00:37:23: basically what Netflix does in

00:37:24: U.S.,

00:37:25: basically what cable companies do is very illegal but wherever it's possible.

00:37:34: And yeah, BtoB companies essentially are jumping on the bandwagon and it proves to be the biggest way companies prevent churn.

00:37:46: And therefore increase customer lifetime value.

00:37:51: but the actual answer like... The proper answer of what you do is figure out your customers need just their job.

00:38:01: Uh and

00:38:03: yeah,

00:38:03: that's essentially it.

00:38:04: Yeah what you asked me?

00:38:06: You ask me about some unusual ways so I'm hearing those.

00:38:10: yeah i checked like in a few apps.

00:38:13: uh Like how it's looking like.

00:38:15: it's insane if for example like in tinder you have to scroll completely down when it's like.

00:38:22: do you want to delete?

00:38:23: Do you, do we want to pause instead of deletion?

00:38:26: And then you're like no I want to delete.

00:38:28: When it's like oh!

00:38:29: We have six different cases.

00:38:31: so um i want to start new...I don't like Tinder yeah but okay and when like it again says like uh okay please confirm make up yep super

00:38:42: crazy.".

00:38:42: And you have to understand that we are very much currently protected UNME by EU regulations which which make it very easy for us.

00:38:52: If you were to cancel your Tinder or delete your Tinder profile in the US outside of California, you would be in for a ride because they don't want that at all!

00:39:04: It's just so impossible...

00:39:08: I started with shady things and am talking about shady things today.

00:39:13: Another thing those companies do is I'm talking about BGC companies.

00:39:20: like most of the shady things are done by bgc companies because they rely on customer acquisition cost more.

00:39:26: What we do is, They play with short trials and The trial is three days And what they say is essentially Sign up for a Trial that It's going to cost you nothing and then subscribe for a dollar.

00:39:52: What they don't tell you is that after week of one-dollar subscription, You will be automatically upgraded to a yearly plan That's like hundred dollars

00:40:01: and just signed the contract.

00:40:03: Yeah And

00:40:05: They do that with what like Apple and Google pay.

00:40:08: so it's very Very easy For you to go and download the app on the App Store or google play?

00:40:15: And they do that in the onboarding where you are most excited.

00:40:20: And their business model completely relies on people just not cancelling this trial and uh, Not canceling it during like the seven day window?

00:40:32: Yeah they basically make people forget that they have a subscription which gives birth to whole new category of subscription management software in BTC that helps people unsubscribe from things they never subscribe to.

00:40:49: I mean, it's fascinating on one way but also giving me weird feelings... It

00:40:55: is insane for me personally.

00:40:58: i know a lot about this and One of the main reasons i've known a lot About This Is Because How Immoral It Is And how it Makes Me Feel Like I Would Never Work At A Company That Does Any Of Those Things.

00:41:12: So Whenever I Interviewed Anywhere one of my questions, do you rely on any of these things?

00:41:18: How can I unsubscribe from your products?

00:41:20: then i go.

00:41:21: I activate a trial and try to unsubscribe.

00:41:24: if I could do that without talking to anyone.

00:41:27: That's the company at work for

00:41:29: by way but it is good platform.

00:41:31: together make advertisement for finance guru.

00:41:34: You can cancel all contracts within finance guru VFX so like It has to be received by companies.

00:41:42: Okay, any final thoughts?

00:41:44: Key takeaways for our audience.

00:41:46: So if you would like maybe have a junior product manager in front of what would be the key things your focus on?

00:41:57: The first thing is understand your audience Not necessarily their demographics What they had for breakfast or any other stuff.

00:42:07: But there are biggest motivations.

00:42:10: Have they just downloaded your app?

00:42:12: Why have they signed up for your

00:42:14: CRM?".

00:42:16: And then given that as soon as possible, it's very easy to say.

00:42:22: It is hard to implement.

00:42:25: and when I was mentoring my team members... ...I was basically refocusing them day after day on this simple idea which has really, like you said, an easy way of saying things to actually do.

00:42:41: because the audience is not like, all of them are the same.

00:42:45: They come for different reasons so you have to segment it and understand.

00:42:49: that's probably my biggest takeaway.

00:42:53: uh... For-for the audience.

00:42:55: That something I would stand by every day.

00:43:00: I think we're in ways where maybe you can make some performance increases, but in the end like people are not stupid.

00:43:07: People will find a cancellation button if they really search for it.

00:43:11: so just put something useful!

00:43:13: Yeah that's obvious yeah and I think our colleagues back from US should probably implement some laws as well which would help industry in general.

00:43:27: because Yeah,

00:43:28: I'm not sure if this will come now but we'll see.

00:43:32: Thank you so much Igor to our listeners!

00:43:34: If you liked the episode please subscribe and give it like five stars or something.

00:43:39: And yeah of course head over to CoolStory if you're interested in stories about your product because i think activation is a cool thing... ...and i really like the no talks about product management.

00:43:50: So thankyou again Igor.

00:43:52: Thank you so much for listening.

00:43:53: If you liked the

00:43:54: podcast,

00:43:55: give it a like!

00:43:56: Give it five stars right at the review shared with friends and... You know whatever you want to do feel free to support

00:44:04: me.

00:44:04: And I definitely really like Igor and i enjoy talking to him on a regular basis by way of recommend everyone doing coffee chats.

00:44:13: people you like like a good flow in the conversation and especially if you do this over years, that's super nice because you see people progress

00:44:24: but also yourself

00:44:26: progressing.

00:44:27: You can support each other.

00:44:29: I don't know.

00:44:29: it gets a cool thing!

00:44:30: Thank you so much Ego for being there.

00:44:32: sorry everyone for posting delayed episodes.

00:44:35: have a wonderful day.